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MEI Conference "Iran on the Horizon" Panel III: Iran & The Levant, February 1, 2008

 
Featuring:
Fares Braizat, Murhaf Jouejati, Judith P. Harik, Trita Parsi
Introduction:

Trita Parsi: Welcome to the Middle East Institute’s afternoon session on Iran and the Levant. Iran has obviously become one of the top issues here in Washington. Even though the NIE may have reduced the sense of urgency a little bit, Iran is still seen as a very urgent issue in the region. We are delighted to have a distinguished panel to discuss the perspectives of some of the countries in the Levant on how Iran’s role has developed and what the challenges and the promises perhaps are in that regard.

We have been hearing a lot over the last couple of weeks that it would be essential for the United States, for instance, to find a way to break the Iranian-Syrian axis as a way of being able to further isolate Iran in the region and use it as a vehicle to be able to push for an Israeli-Palestinian peace agreement. Even though the Syrians ended up participating in Annapolis, which clearly seemed to cause a lot of irritation in Tehran, we have also seen other developments that seem to go in the opposite direction. I am sure there has been a lot of discussion about it in the morning – about Iran’s radical President Ahmadinejad attending the GCC meeting, doing the hajj in Saudi Arabia, as well as what seems to now be going on between Iran and Egypt and a potential rapprochement between those two countries after more than two decades of non-relations.

But what does this then mean for the region, if instead of the US being able to break the Iran-Syria axis the Iranians are making advances and improving their relations with the Arab states, even though it may be temporary or perhaps been going on in a very reluctant way from the Arab perspective? What does that mean for Jordan, a country whose king coined the term “Shi’ite crescent” but seems to be reluctant to speak or use that term much more? What does it mean for Lebanon, which in the view of some people has become an arena for a proxy war between the United States and Iran? Is the conflict and the political instability inevitably leading towards a proxy war in which [Iran] and Syria are on one side and the United States and Saudi Arabia and some other Arab states are on the other?

In order to address these and some other issues we have a distinguished panel. Our first speaker is Dr. Fares Braizat from Jordan, the Deputy Director and Researcher at the Center for Strategic Studies at the University of Jordan. He has also spent a considerable amount of time here in Washington, both as a congressional fellow on the House Foreign Relations Committee and at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. He holds a PhD from the University of Kent as well as a diploma in human rights and humanitarian law from the University of Lund in Sweden – which by the way is where I also received some of my education. I was shocked to see another Middle Easterner there. Thank you so much and please welcome Dr. Braizat.

Fares Braizat: Thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk to you today about the Levant and Iran’s role in the Levant from a Jordanian perspective. I do not know if I have much to say after the excellent presentations we have heard in the morning sessions but I will try to add something new and I hope that it will be new, since all of you here are interested in the region and in Iran and you are all almost experts on the issue.

Let me begin with three analytical areas through which we can understand the Jordanian and the Arab-Iranian relationships. One is the sectarian religious identity. A second is the geopolitics and trade. The third is relations with the West. These are three determining factors of Iranian-Arab relations. As much as they apply to the Arab world in general they do apply to Jordanian-Iranian relations.

In terms of religion and sectarian identity, as Iran’s status in the region has evolved so has its brand of Shi’a Islam, now characterized by its sectarian nature more than its previous revolutionary appeal. Although Shi’a Iranian Islam still possesses a certain revolutionary attraction it is distinctly contemporary in nature and has been defined with an anti-Western rhetoric and Iran’s response to current events in the region, including the 2006 summer war between Israel and Hezbollah and the American invasion of Iraq.

Sectarian religious identity serves – this is my assumption here – as a facilitating factor in mobilizing people for political cause. It has evolved as a defensive political Shi’ism and in response to regional and international pressure and instability. The politicized Shi’a sectarian identity emerged in Iraq as a consequence of dismantling the Iraqi state. Then the US acknowledged religious, sectarian and ethnic identities as political identities forming the basis of inclusion and exclusion in the political process in Iraq. That was and is and will remain a mistake, because that undermines the very concept that democracy promotion takes into account – equality before the law and citizenship. We are putting something before the citizenship principle.

The second category is the geopolitical. My colleagues this morning talked about the geographical proximity of Iran to Arab countries and that it is a fate we cannot escape. Iran is there and will stay there and we have to live with that. But there are certain developments that gave the geographical proximity a new meaning. One of them is Iran’s relationship with Iraq after the invasion. Iran took advantage of new realities on the ground. It increased its support to the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq and also increased support for the military wing of that organization (Badr). It also supported all the new political elites in Iraq and established strong contacts with them while Arab states have remained outside the immediate political intervention inside Iraq. Now there has been some change. Some Arab states are getting engaged, although reservedly. It is better late than never but there is something going on now.

A final point on the security issue. Iran did not only weaponize its allies, it also weaponized and supported other militant groups, including some Al Qaeda factions in Iraq. That was a major concern to Jordan as a political issue.

The third factor is relations with the West as a determining factor of Arab-Iranian relations and the Jordanian-Iranian relationship. That goes in the rejectionist camp, which consists of Iran, Syria, Hezbollah and Hamas. That puts a lot of strain on the way that Jordanian foreign policy functions in the region. In previous Jordanian-Iranian relations we can talk about three major dimensions: history, especially since 1949; the security of the Middle East; and current Jordan-Iran relations.

In history, there was not historical animosity between Jordan and the Iranians. Between 1949 and 1979 there were strong relations between Jordan under King Hussein and Iran under the Shah. There were some agreements signed – a 1960 agreement on cultural and educational exchange; in 1973 another agreement on commercial cooperation; and in 1975 an agreement on tourism. Following that, between 1979 and 1991, strained relations which were characterized by the idea of exporting the Iranian revolution and Iran supporting underground opposition groups in Jordan – a concern that still exists today in Jordan, especially after the stronger Iranian presence in Iraq.

Between 1991 and 2003 relations were better. In 1991 King Hussein met with Rafsanjani in the Islamic Conference in Senegal. That meeting was a step forward in establishing cultural and tourism between Jordan and Iran. After that, which is the reformist period, under President Rafsanjani and then President Khatami the Iranian government suggested that it would welcome debate or dialogue with other countries. The Jordanian government responded and that resulted in an official visit in 2003 by King Abdullah II to Iran. That was a major step forward but it has not really materialized after the invasion of Iraq. Nothing really major came out of that.

Since 2003 until today – and the election of Ahmadinejad in 2005 brought new limitations on the way Jordan could conduct its foreign policy with Iran. One major issue is the continuing support of Iran to groups that Jordan sees as adversaries in Jordan and the region.

That brings us to relations in Middle East security – the understanding of Middle East security. In the 2006 summer war between Israel and Hezbollah we witnessed Iranian support to Hezbollah, in which Iran provided Muhajer-4 weapons (unmanned aerial vehicles) to Hezbollah and Fajr-3 missiles. Jordan was concerned that Hezbollah rockets could reach its territory and it made frequent public statements that this is threatening to the security of the country.

As far as the Iraqi situation is concerned, it has become extremely important for Jordan to engage Iran on that front. But it has not really materialized in any concrete steps on the ground. Ahmadinejad could be maybe the first head of a Muslim state to visit Baghdad but he might be the first one to visit while other, especially Arab countries are not making Iraq or Baghdad as a destination for their political activities.

For Jordan, the invasion of Iraq has been a major security problem and it also created a humanitarian situation in which Jordan got itself involved. We have around 700,000 Iraqi refugees in Jordan today. That puts a lot of pressure on basic infrastructure in Jordan, in terms of health, education, water and all that. The level of internal security, the rise of extremism in Iraq also resulted in the November 2005 attacks in Amman. Terrorists crossed the border from Iraq and three hotels in Amman were bombed. The new political system in Iraq has confirmed the likelihood that the Iraqi Shi’a majority government will be naturally inclined to support Shi’a Iran as the region increasingly becomes divided by questions of Shi’a-Sunni sectarian identity.

The inability of the international community to fully address the complexities of reconciliation among Iraqi internal factions, coupled with the lack of involvement of Iraq’s neighbors, has allowed Iran to fill the power vacuum that was left in Iraq – partly, yet significantly. The future of how Iraq plays into the Iranian-Jordanian dynamic will be largely affected by how closely Baghdad allies itself with Tehran. Jordan has not been shy to express its unease with Iran’s involvement in Iraq, a concern King Abdullah highlighted when he coined the now-famous phase “the Shi’a crescent” to describe his concern over rising Iranian influence in the region.

The other factor in the relationship is the non-state actors and Iranian support to non-state actors. For Jordan, relations with Iran have recently concerned Iran’s involvement in internal affairs and the development of Iran’s nuclear program. From a Jordanian perspective, that would embolden Iran and would give its satellite factions in the region a much stronger voice and role in the events that would affect Jordan’s stability. It would be perhaps an unstoppable march of influence.

Hezbollah was a major factor in deciding how Jordan would approach Iran and engage Iranian politics. The statement that was issued when King Abdullah and President Hosni Mubarak said something like “this is adventurism that does not serve Arab interests” created some negative reaction among public opinion in Jordan and the region. Yet it has kept the public perception of Hezbollah as a strong political faction that defends what the public sees as the Arab interest against Israel and the United States.

Recently in an interview in The Daily Telegraph a Jordanian officer was quoted in the United Arab Emirates, while at training that includes Arab air force generals trained by Americans, as saying that “we are training here to offset any potential trouble in the region and that increased our collaboration with our Arab brothers.” This kind of statement is quite unusual. We have not seen statements coming from army generals or air force generals talking about military and political cooperation with the Gulf countries and the Americans.

The last point I would like to mention quickly regards the possibility of a deal between Washington and Iran and where that would leave the Arab states. There are some speculations that an Iranian-American deal would not really take place. To the contrary, there are speculations about a Saudi effort involved in mediating between Washington and Tehran. How accurate that is will remain to be seen but one cannot simply assume that the Americans would sign a deal with the Iranians and leave the Arabs unconsulted in that – especially as they have been allies for a long time and have been consistent in their support for American policies in the region. Thank you for listening.

Trita Parsi: Thank you, Dr. Braizat. I am sure we are going to get back to some of the good points you mentioned in your presentation in the Q&A. Our next speaker is Professor Jouejati, who is here in Washington a professor at the National Defense University. He is also an Adjunct Professor at George Washington University and has acted as an advisor both to the European Union as well as to the Syrian government in various negotiations. He holds a PhD in political science from the University of Utah and an MA in Arab area studies from Georgetown University.

Murhaf Jouejati: Thank you very much, Trita. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. I am very happy to be here. Thank you to the Middle East Institute for having me.

First of all, I have many friends here. Many of you know me and have seen this beard for the first time. I do not want to convey the message that I am trying to get the Ahmadinejad look simply because I am talking about the Syria-Iran strategic alliance. In fact this dovetails nicely with what Trita said at the start about attempts to wean Syria away from Iran. In my presentation I am going to cover this, a presentation I have divided into three: where we are now in terms of the Syria-Iran alliance; how we got there; and finally, where do we go from here?

Syria, as you know, is an ally of Iran and it is in the nexus of the Iran-Syria-Hezbollah-Hamas alliance that is intended from the Syrian and Iranian perspective to explode what Syria calls the American Project. Of course the United States is allied to Israel and the United States has several Arab partners in this coalition – Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Egypt. Syria, unlike all the states that are represented here, does not fear Iran, does not fear the Iranian nuclear enrichment effort. In fact Syria supports that effort, in part because these efforts – from a Syrian perspective – are consistent with Article VI of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, which establishes the inalienable right of all the parties to the treaty to develop research, production and use of nuclear energy for peaceful purposes. I dare say even if the Iranian purposes are not peaceful, Syria is not fearful of that – again, because Iran in this case is Syria’s big brother and it is 500 miles away from Syria.

Syria and Iran have a military alliance. They have had a defense pact since June 2006, one that was strengthened by a memorandum of understanding in 2007. The alliance has intensified recently. The new Iranian ambassador, and I believe he has been there for something under a month, is the vice-president for legislative affairs (a very important position).

In addition to the military alliance there is a very intense economic cooperation. In 2006 Iran invested some $800 million in Syria. In accordance with the size of the Syrian economy, this is a big deal. In 2007 Iran invested over $1 billion and it is projected that by the year 2010 there is going to be over $10 billion worth of Iranian investment in Syria. These are in oil refining, construction, the manufacture of cars and trucks and buses, cement works, glass and rubber. Iranian investments thus far represent 66 percent of total Arab investment in Syria and 50 percent of non-Arab investments.

This alliance of course is not about economics. In fact the deputy prime minister for economic affairs in Syria, when asked why Syria was turning to the east, said: well, we would like to turn to the west, but the west has shut its doors to us. Economics is not a factor in this alliance – nor is ideology. As you can guess, Syria and Iran are truly the odd couple. Syria is a very secular regime. Syria perceives itself as the champion of Arab nationalism and these things are anathema to Iran’s theocratic regime.

Nor does sectarian affiliation have a very significant factor. It is said that the Alawis, which are an offshoot of Ismaili Shi’ism, have an affinity to Iran’s Shi’ism. I do not think this is a major factor at all. In fact from a Syrian perspective the statement by King Abdullah of Jordan about the emergence of a Shi’a crescent – the Syrian regime does not identify with this. Shi’is are not a monolith. There are many differences between Iraqi Shi’is and Iranian Shi’is; there are a huge amount of differences between Syrian Alawis and Iraqi Shi’is and Iranian Shi’is. There is even more differences between the Shi’is in the south of Lebanon with the Alawis and the Iraqis and the Iranians. So to say there is the rise of a Shi’ite crescent in the Middle East falls on deaf ears among the Syrian elite.

A case in point: Syria is allied to Hezbollah, which of course is a Shi’ite organization for the most part, but Syria is also allied to Hamas – a very Sunni organization. Here the point is that this affinity is not sectarian-based but is based on Syria’s perceptions of threat that emanate from Israel.

The alliance between Syria and Iran is interests-driven. It is truly a marriage of convenience. For Iran, Syria gives it the reach into the Arab-Israeli conflict. For Syria, Iran is the big brother on the block – a block that is a very threatening environment to the Syrians. Syria is after all surrounded by US power. To the north, although recently the relationship between Syria and Turkey has warmed tremendously, still Turkey is a very powerful member of NATO and an ally of the United States. Next door in Iraq there are 163,000 US troops. To the south of Syria is Jordan, which is the greatest supporter of the United States in the Arab world. To the southwest is Israel, which Syria does not regard in very kind terms. To the west there is Lebanon, which is a very threatening environment, especially now that Syria has been ejected from there. There is of course the Sixth Fleet of the United States that is very firmly anchored in the Mediterranean. So Syria feels surrounded and to make matters worse, Syria is the victim of US economic sanctions. The US withdrew its ambassador and the US is calling publicly for a change in Syria’s behavior, although very few in the Syrian elite buy this. They are convinced that what Washington wants is a regime change. To buttress that argument they point to at least two offices of the Syrian opposition here in Washington.

So Syria feels threatened and it has revived that strategic alliance which is not new. How we got to here is since the early 1980s, at the outset of the Islamic revolution in Iran and the Iran-Iraq war, the Iraqi invasion of Iran – at the time Hafez Asad viewed that war as the wrong war at the wrong time against the wrong enemy in the wrong place. The threat from Asad’s perspective – Asad who sits 40 miles away from Israel – is not Iran, especially an Iran that now has escaped the Pax Americana, the American order, with the overthrow of the Shah; with Khomeini, who gave the Israeli embassy to the Palestinians; a Khomeini who had torn apart the CENTO treaty with the United States. This Iran was no threat to the Arabs; we should embrace the Islamic revolution in Iran not on ideological grounds but on the grounds that Egypt, which had just concluded its separate treaty with Israel, which had just exited the Arab camp, which had left a huge power vacuum facing the Israelis – it was Iran who was going to fill this.

In addition to this strategic perspective – whether Asad was right or wrong is irrelevant – there are of course the idiosyncrasies of Hafez Asad. Yes, he did have a socioeconomic-based sympathy with the poor rural folks – the tobacco farmers of the south of Lebanon. Yes, Imam Musa Sadr of Lebanon had pronounced Alawis a sect within Islam so that Asad could and should be viewed as the Muslim president of Syria. You recall at the time the Muslim Brotherhood, in that constitution of 1972, had pronounced Alawis heretics and therefore Hafez Asad was not fit to rule this Muslim country. Well, Musa Sadr saved him by this fatwa. Imam Khomeini saved the Asad regime when he declared the Muslim Brotherhood – at the time in the late 1970s and early 1980s the Syrian regime and the Muslim Brotherhood were on the verge of civil war, and here is Khomeini, the grand master of Islam, declaring the Muslim Brotherhood as merely puppets of the United States.

So as a result it is natural that Asad would look to Iran for strength. This alliance however, although it is the most enduring alliance in the Middle East – dating back to the early 1980s – this alliance was never free of problems. Remember the turf wars in Lebanon between Amal, the surrogate of Syria, and Hezbollah, the surrogate of Iran. Remember the Syrians being opposed to the kidnappings of Americans and others in Lebanon and succeeding in many instances in releasing them. Remember that Hafez Asad was totally opposed to the TWA hijacking and had been able to successfully release the hostages.

There were many problematics with Iran. Syria at the time was trying to show the United States that it is and could be the stabilizer of Lebanon. But the alliance then under the days of Hafez Asad I think was one of equals. Today it looks to me more like a patron-client relationship, and I do not say this to diminish Syria. But certainly Syria is the junior in this partnership. Young Asad is not his dad, he is not the strategic thinker that his dad was, and the Syrian elite now faces an existential threat.

Where do we go from here? I think despite the fact that this is a strategic alliance it can end. We saw some of this – Syria came to Annapolis despite the advice of Iran. Syria is trying to signal the United States, I believe, that it could and would do away with its alliance with Iran if it were able to resume talks with Israel, if it were able to have ironclad guarantees that it is going to recover the Golan Heights.

I look forward to your questions.

Trita Parsi: Thank you so much. Our next speaker is Professor Judith Harik from the Matn University in Beirut. She is recognized as a leading expert on Hezbollah and the Lebanese civil war. She taught at the American University in Beirut until 2003 when she became president of Matn University. She holds a PhD and an MA from the University of Iowa and a degree from Drew University.

Judith Harik: Thank you very much. Thanks to the Middle East Institute for inviting me. I am going to talk about Iran’s foreign policy in Lebanon today and its future relationship with Hezbollah.

Iran’s foreign policy in Lebanon is less important than its interest in Iraq, Afghanistan and the Gulf states, where the issues addressed revolve around national security. In Lebanon on the other hand, ending regional isolation and showcasing Iran’s growing power are Tehran’s two main foreign policy objectives. As in Palestine/Israel, these goals are achieved by supporting an organization struggling to recoup Arab land occupied by Israel – Hezbollah.

Lebanon provided Iran fertile ground for implementation of this policy since a significant Shi’a community had been traumatized by Israeli attacks and politically mobilized since the 1960s. Within that community there was also an important Islamic current that could be tapped to confront Israel. The policy developed by Iranian leaders for Lebanon is therefore evidenced by action on two fronts: one, the provision of financial and economic resources by Iran to the Lebanese Shi’ite community, especially during periods of emergency; two, support for Hezbollah in the resistance against Israel.

In the first instance Iran has brought institutional, developmental, economic and financial resources to the Shi’ite community that have made a substantial improvement in the living standards of this neglected group. In addition during and after periods of military conflict Tehran provides emergency assistance aimed at rehabilitation and reconstruction. As the level of destruction wreaked on Lebanon was so extensive in the summer war of 2006, for the first time Iran sent a mission headed by an engineer (Hossam Khoshnevis [phonetic]) that would take up residence in Lebanon so as to quickly implement and manage reconstruction and rehabilitation of a wide range of institutions and infrastructure. According to Khoshnevis [phonetic], the projects he directs include among others: work on 330 damaged or destroyed schools serving an estimated 700,000 students; repairs to 20 hospitals and infirmaries; and nearly 700 kilometers (550 miles) of road and highway rehabilitation. These projects, it was understood and underlined, are carried out in Christian, Sunni and Shi’ite communities subjected to Israeli bombardment

It is important to note however that neither professionals nor staff employed by Hezbollah – that is, by their reconstruction organization Jihad al-Binaa – have any involvement in the Islamic Republic’s programs. In return for the benefits these programs convey, identification with Iran and the Shi’ite community is further enhanced.

In the second case, support of Hezbollah, over the past 25 years Iran has offered Hezbollah training, equipment and financial resources necessary for the fielding of an effective resistance operation against Israeli occupation. In the early 1980s it was a contingent of Iran’s Revolutionary Guards that had come to the Baalbek area of the Bekaa Valley that commenced the recruitment and training of Hezbollah’s cadres. This direct intervention by the Revolutionary Guards however was phased out after 1987 and by 1989 it ended. Since then rumors have circulated about the presence of this organization during the major clashes between Hezbollah and the Israelis in the 1990s. They resurfaced during the summer war of 2006 when there were reports that officers of Iran’s Revolutionary Guard were directing Hezbollah operations in the battle zone. Anthony Cordesman, senior military analyst at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, made it his business to address these rumors on a trip to Israel after the war. In his preliminary report on the war he wrote, “One key point is that no serving Israeli official, intelligence officer or other military officer felt that the Hezbollah acted under the direction of Iran or Syria in the war theater. Hezbollah’s independence of action during Israel’s massive land, air and sea attacks would therefore seem to indicate that its military forces had outgrown the Revolutionary Guard’s tutelage and that these forces have become an Arab army in their own right. At any rate, to my knowledge there have been no facts brought to light that members of the Revolutionary Guards have visited Lebanon before, during or after the summer war.” [note: end of quote not specified]

However, the word is that Hezbollah engineers began preparing the ground – perhaps literally – south and north of the Litani River for a future confrontation with Israel that is believed to be inevitable. They began this immediately after the ceasefire came into effect in August 2006.

As a result of Iran’s two-pronged foreign policy, Tehran has also been able to develop a role for itself in the internal politics of Lebanon – much as Saudi Arabia has done through assistance provided to the Lebanese Sunni community there. Iran’s involvement in Lebanon’s internal politics today however is basically limited to fending off possible sectarian strife between the Sunni and Shi’ite communities when street tensions rise as a result of the political deadlock that has paralyzed the country since the assassination of Prime Minister Rafiq Hariri in February 2005. At present contacts with Iran’s foreign minister and national security advisor are being made by European and Arab officials and especially by Saudi officials to try to facilitate a negotiated solution to Lebanon’s political impasse. In this respect, Tehran has been encouraging its allies in Lebanon to resolve their differences with others in a peaceful manner.

The above discussion indicates that Iran’s foreign policy in Lebanon is relatively limited in terms of what it can do for the Lebanese. However, the Lebanese – and particularly Hezbollah – offer Iran the possibility of developing influence outside its borders, influence that may be utilized as a bargaining chip in the power politics of the Middle East. Looking toward the future, how would that be possible and what would be the reaction of the broader Shi’ite community that is represented mainly by Hezbollah?

To answer this question I recently had a wide-ranging discussion with a very senior Hezbollah leader. Two of the questions I posed may be of particular interest in this conference. The first question focused on the present relationship between Iran and Hezbollah and asked what leverage Iran might have over the latter. The second question asked whether this relationship might evolve or change in the future, particularly if Iran is attacked by the United States.

On the leverage issue the response was that institutional goals of both actors converge on opposition to Israeli occupation and on American policy and material support for that country in the Arab-Israeli conflict. Special congruence was articulated on the issue of Jerusalem as the spiritual capital of Islam. However, when asked who calls the shots, Hezbollah or Iran, the leader’s response was that Hezbollah has broad latitude in its decision-making process and is very much insulated from any dictates from Iran, whether political, social or military. The Hezbollah leader then provided an illustration of his organization’s capacity to call the policy shots as follows: “Many times over the years the Iranians have come to us with military and political initiatives that they believe would serve their country’s interests in Lebanon. But if those initiatives did not serve Lebanon’s interests as we see them, most often we were able to convince them to modify or even abandon those initiatives. In policy discussions, more often than not we influenced them rather than the other way around.” The very senior Hezbollah official emphasized that to this day there has not been a single instance of Hezbollah going along with Iranian requests that were deemed counterproductive to organizational interests or to Lebanon’s interests as determined by party leaders.

When asked if the relationship described might change if Iran threatened to withhold military material or economic support, the senior Hezbollah official’s emphatic response was, “Hezbollah has the capacity to secure military hardware from the same sources that supply Iran.” The economic dimension of Iranian assistance, he said, is also not of major concern since Hezbollah has substantial independent sources of this type of support – from the Lebanese Shi’ite community and expatriates, Iran, and both Sunni and Shi’ite residents of the Gulf. He noted that this broad-based private assistance expanded considerably as a result of Hezbollah’s performance against Israel in the summer war of 2006. He also said that over the years Hezbollah’s various institutions have developed major financial reserves that can be used to bridge any possible gap in support by Iran that might be important to the operation of these institutions or resistance activities. He cited the benevolent loan micro-credit institution Al Khor del Hassan [phonetic], which has thousands of employees, as an example of such institutional largesse.

I just happen to have interviewed in January 2007 Hezbollah’s former social and public services director, Sheikh Hussein Shami [phonetic], who is now director of the micro-credit program. I was briefed on the development functions and dimension of that institution. Shami indicated that the micro-credit program he had been instrumental in creating and developing had grown tremendously since it began in 1984. He emphasized that it had had no support from any country or other association or group of note. According to him this growth was the result of careful planning and the application of sophisticated financial techniques and actuarial science. Shami noted that the organization he heads has accumulated to date a loan fund in excess of $1 billion that is available for micro-credit purposes and that micro-credit is not limited to members of the Shi’ite community. He explained that this money materialized through a simple and very popular system of public participation that grew from 25 individuals in 1984 to 57,000 participants and contributors at the end of 2006.

This information may lead some to believe that Iran’s relationship with Hezbollah can be considered today as more of a partnership cemented by common strategic goals than a state-client relationship, whether in economic and financial fields or in military and political ones. I suggest that the extent of Iran’s leverage over Hezbollah may not be as important as formerly thought.

The question now before us is whether the relative independence described above would prevail and Hezbollah’s behavior would remain the same if a more serious situation confronted the actors – such as an American military action against Iran. When the scenario was posed the Hezbollah leader became considerably more animated. The specific questions raised were: if Iran was attacked, would Hezbollah be asked to enter the battle? If so, would the freedom of action you described be somewhat restricted or would Hezbollah have some leeway in deciding the course of action? The leader’s response to these hypothetical questions provide some compelling information on the subject.

He noted that Hezbollah has factual and specific information from Iran’s leadership that if Iran is attacked at any time by the United States, with or without its allies’ assistance, Iran’s immediate military response would be an attack on Israel and on American bases in the Gulf and the region, including Iraq. I was also told that in this case Hezbollah would then assess the situation and plan its course of action on the basis of how Israel would react in the days following Iran’s attack. Specifically, Hezbollah’s expectation is that such a military development in the region would result in a general conflagration involving other countries and most likely would lead to an Israeli attack on Lebanon and Syria within the following few days. The Hezbollah leader continued by saying, “We are prepared for such an attack on Lebanon and we will present Israel with a new type of warfare that will be a major strategic surprise for their armed forces. The issue of whether we will be called upon to enter the battle by Iran may therefore not be relevant. On the other hand, if we are spared an attack from Israel the decision of whether or not we enter the battle to support the Iranian war effort remains a policy matter to be decided upon by Hezbollah leaders if and when the situation arises.” From this discussion, the notion of a reflexive reaction by Hezbollah in response to a request for military action from Iran is called into question.

But whether we accept Hezbollah official statements of their organization’s relative independence from Iran at face value or not, it is a fact that its leaders have had 25 years to try to build a complex and self-sustaining institution. It can therefore be assumed that reducing however and wherever possible the vulnerability conveyed by reliance on a single external source of material and financial support, such as Iran, would probably be an institutional priority. The degree to which Hezbollah has been or may become successful in this endeavor would therefore certainly have to be factored into any future relationship between Iran and its Lebanese ally, where strategies and tactics to be used in the Lebanese theater are concerned.

I would now like to conclude by summarizing some points and suggesting some recommendations for US analysts and policymakers.

One, when dealing with foreign policy toward Iran it is important for experts to realize that Tehran’s leaders may not have as much leverage over Hezbollah as previously thought. It appears that Iran’s Lebanese ally may thus have to be dealt with as a partner of Iran rather than its client. As such Hezbollah should be considered and addressed directly as Lebanese actors with a Lebanese agenda rather than a simple agent of Iran.

Two, US foreign policymakers should also realize that if a military option is chosen to force Iranian compliance with American demands they are opening up the serious possibility of broader regional conflagration involving Iran’s allies and partners. The fact that Iran has communicated to Hezbollah its clear intent to attack Israel regardless of whether or not that country participates in the initial attack on Iran seems to indicate a clear strategic position taken by Tehran that widening the conflict is in their country’s best interest. In other words, as a byproduct of Iran’s foreign policy in Lebanon, this small country may again be placed in the eye of the storm regardless of what all parties in Lebanon may want.

Third, the space that Hezbollah may well have staked out for itself in the realm of political and military decision-making makes it unclear as to whether the Party of God would indeed enter a conflict initiated by an attack on Iran that had no direct bearing on Lebanon, whose interests it professes to serve. This idea should probably be given some consideration by strategists in deciding America’s political or military options vis-à-vis Iran.

A final observation. Hezbollah’s apparent emergence as a political actor in its own right in the Levant presents US policymakers with the challenge of viewing this organization in a new light and provides opportunities to revisit strategic planning that has rested on the assumption that Hezbollah was a client of Iran’s instead of the partner that it is becoming. Thank you.

Question & Answer:

Trita Parsi: Thank you so much for those excellent presentations. I have been flooded with great questions but I am going to use my prerogative as the chair to ask the first one. We saw many different perspectives here. It was interesting to see that from the Syrian perspective there seems to not be a fear of Iran, at least not the same type of fear that may exist elsewhere in the region. While Jordan on the other hand is looking very concerned about developments in the region and Iran’s role in it. Despite these differences, is there a common interest between Jordan and Syria and other states to perhaps not see a US-Iran reconciliation – from the Jordanian perspective, because of a fear of not being consulted and then be excluded from such an arrangement; and from the Syrian perspective perhaps that any deal between the United States and Iran would then weaken the Syrian-Iranian axis and leave Syria somewhat without its big brother. Beyond that, if there is consultation between the United States and its Arab allies, would those Arab allies view a reconciliation between the United States and Iran as favorable and be supportive of it or is the status quo the best option? That also applies to Hezbollah. How would Hezbollah view such a development?

Feres Braizat: I think the Jordanian position has been quite clear, King Abdullah repeated it frequently, that Jordan seeks a peaceful diplomatic solution to the standoff between the United States and Iran on the nuclear issue. But that is not the only factor involved in this. There are many other factors involved, ranging from the Iraqi situation to financial support and diplomatic support of Hamas and Hezbollah.

On the Arab front, I think it has become quite clear recently that after the visit of President Bush to the region that Arab states are very much interested in a diplomatic solution to the crisis. They do not make it secret that they do not want the region to go through another war because that would be catastrophic both to their states and societies and to Iran and security in general in the Gulf area.

Murhaf Jouejati: In the case there is a reconciliation between the United States and Iran, if this reconciliation is a package deal that includes benefits for Iran’s ally Syria, Syria would applaud it. If on the other hand that reconciliation between the United States and Iran leaves Syria out in the cold, that certainly would weaken Syria. In that case, what Syria would do then is to return to what is called the Arab consensus. Let’s not forget that Syria left the Arab consensus, left the pillars of the Arab order – Egypt and Saudi Arabia – a few years ago because they were not able to deliver Syria from the wrath of the United States. This is why Syria like a pendulum swung to Iran in view of its security. Again, if Iran leaves Syria out in the cold, Syria like that pendulum is going to go back to the Arab order.

Judith Harik: It is an interesting question. Hezbollah views itself as self-sustaining, even if we say relatively self-sustaining. I think if Iran moved out of the strategic relationship with Syria and withdrew some support from Hezbollah, it would not make all that much difference. Depending on what Syria would do I think that Hezbollah could continue to receive weapons probably through Syria. Probably cut back on its social services but it could cut back 50 percent on the social services and the Shi’ite community would still be dependent on Hezbollah because they do not have any other real social or public service network.

This would depend on what Syria would do. But I think what is interesting in what you said is the following. If what you predicted might happen, would Syria say: never mind the Golan Heights? Or would it continue to try to use Hezbollah as a little nudge to Israel now and then that that issue should stay on the front burner? Personally I do not see Syria giving up a major card in regaining the Golan Heights.

Murhaf Jouejati: Certainly I agree with you. I cannot imagine any Syrian leader standing before his public and saying never mind the Golan Heights. The modicum of legitimacy that the Syrian regime has would decline even further. Syria would perhaps give up on its relationship with Hezbollah if it were able to recover the Golan Heights but it would probably continue using its relationship with Hezbollah in order to exercise leverage on Israel, in order to exercise this instrument of power. Unless of course the threat to Syria as a result of its support to Hezbollah becomes existential to the dominant political elite.

Fares Braizat: Just one last point. Jordan tried to engage Syria – King Abdullah visited Syria recently and the Syrian prime minister came to Jordan to sign a few agreements – and that was seen by the US as an unwelcome move. The United States did not support that effort given the circumstances. But I think Jordan and other Arab countries have a vested interest to bring Syria back to the Arab orbit and disentangle it from the Iranian orbit.

Trita Parsi: I received several questions with regard to Hamas directed to Professor Harik. You made an excellent presentation about the relationship between Hezbollah and Iran. Would you be able to speak on Iran’s relations to Hamas as well?

Judith Harik: I will not be able to speak with as much assurance but certainly it is based along the same lines as its relationship with Hezbollah. Of course aiding Hamas is much more difficult. As Hamas leaders once said to Hezbollah leaders: you guys get everything. We have to do this resistance on our own.

It is a bit difficult, as we have seen, for Hamas to get the same kind of weaponry that Hezbollah gets for obvious reasons, and these are geographical reasons as well. But at present it serves Iran’s credentials as a defender of Jerusalem particularly to continue supporting Hamas, a Sunni organization – does not make much difference.

Trita Parsi: The degree of freedom that Hamas then has from Tehran would be greater, compared to what Hezbollah has?

Judith Harik: Yes, I suppose so. I would say probably so. I have not really taken time to think about that. But as I have spoken on the fact that Hezbollah has generated some independence from Iran, I imagine the fact that Iran cannot do everything for Hamas that it does for Hezbollah would mean that Hamas has more leverage and probably turns more to Syria.

Murhaf Jouejati: Syria probably has more leverage on Hamas than Iran, just as Iran probably has more leverage on Hezbollah than Syria.

Trita Parsi: I received several questions also directed to Dr. Braizat in regards to your comment about Iranian support for Al Qaeda elements in Iraq. Some questioners want you to speak a little more about that; others are asking for more specific evidence and examples.

Fares Braizat: Iranian support for some elements of Al Qaeda in Iraq is no secret. I have been informed by many people who work on these issues that they have evidence, especially Iraqi individuals who joined the Majlis Al-Sahwa, the Awakening Council in Iraq. Recently I met someone in Amman and he detailed to me some information about that. That is one specific example but a more general framework is that Iran has had a policy of supporting every single element that would destabilize Iraq and make the situation in Iraq as difficult as possible for the United States. Within that framework one would understand why Iran would provide explosives to different elements in the Iraqi “resistance movement.”

At least 15,000 people crossed two months after the fall of Baghdad from Iran to Iraq – the Badr Brigades and others. Those people did not come to Iraq as tourists. They came with a political agenda. They are the beginning of a political process the Iranians have developed over the coming months and years in Iraq.

Trita Parsi: The Golan is important for Syria but in your opinion, is maintaining influence in Lebanon more important to Syria?

Murhaf Jouejati: I am of the view, rightly or wrongly, that the Golan is the first and foremost priority of Syrian foreign policy. The first and foremost priority of the Syrian political elite is survival – let us not make any mistake about that – but afterwards it is the recovery of the Golan Heights more than it is influence in Lebanon. Syria does what it does, whatever it does, in Lebanon in view of trying to prevent Lebanon from falling into Israel’s clutches. So if Syria were able to recover the Golan Heights diplomatically it would not need to have the kind of influence it wishes it had in Lebanon. This holds true whether in relationship to its influence in Lebanon or its relationship with Iran or with Hezbollah or Hamas.

Trita Parsi: We spoke earlier on about recent discussions that have been going on between the Egyptians and Iranians. The Iranians have come out and said that there is a likelihood that they will actually resume diplomatic relations with Egypt and there have been conversations on the phone between Mubarak and Ahmadinejad. How do you view that and how do you believe Beirut, Damascus and Amman views that development?

Murhaf Jouejati: This dovetails with the first question. If Syria feels that it is going to be left out in the cold, especially by its Iranian ally, it is going to be very weakened. On the other hand Syria tries to make it such, at least to other Arab states, that it is the natural bridge between Iran, with which it is allied, and the other Arab states. So if Syria knew that it could get something out of this Iranian-Egyptian rapprochement it probably would want to exploit it to the hilt in showing that it has been the one to cement such a relationship.

Judith Harik: This is my first mention of the Lebanese government, but I think the present Lebanese government would welcome that development. It is a pro-US-oriented government and it would. Hezbollah would not view that very happily.

Fares Braizat: Just a couple days ago President Mubarak received the speaker of the Iranian Shura Council. That was one event in a series of events that pointed to the strengthening relations between Egypt and Iran. Egyptian-Iranian relations were the most difficult since 1979 compared to other Arab states, except Iraq. I think there is a strategic view that there must be a security pact that would include Arab states as well as Iran and other countries in the region, perhaps Israel and Turkey, in order to avoid military confrontation in the Gulf, especially between the Americans and Iranians. If one takes that for granted, one would also understand that the Egyptian movement toward engaging Iran a little more makes a lot of sense – not only because the Egyptians are interested, also the Gulf states are very much interested in that process. They need the diplomatic support and the weight that Egypt has is extremely important for such an effort to succeed.

Trita Parsi: We discussed earlier that Syria truly believes Golan to be the highest priority and its involvement in Lebanon and elsewhere is mostly geared toward achieving that objective. In September 2007 Shimon Peres said the time is ripe for an Israeli-Syrian deal. There have been persistent rumors that there is readiness in Syria and in Israel but there may not be readiness in Washington. Could you shed some light on that and also say if there are any near-term prospects for any deal between Syria and Israel?

Murhaf Jouejati: Frankly, in the short term, no. Not until this administration gets on the tarmac of an airport and says bye-bye. I do not see the Bush administration trying to encourage the Israelis to hold talks with Syria so we are going to have to wait for after this administration.

Another impediment to this is the weakness of the Olmert government. Israeli withdrawal from the Golan Heights is not a very popular issue in Israel. So I am not very encouraged about the prospects of peace between Syria and Israel unless and until there is an administration in Washington that wants to see this through.

On the Syrian side, however, I would like to restate here that the Syrian government has said that it has been interested and it is interested in resuming peace talks with Israel since the accession to power of the young President Bashar Asad. This is nothing new and he has repeated it and he has been consistent in it. So Damascus hears some positive noises from Israel from time to time and negative noises from time to time. Under this administration, of course, has heard nothing but negatives from Washington.

Trita Parsi: And why is that?

Murhaf Jouejati: For a host of reasons. The Syrians facilitated the export of jihadists into Iraq. The Syrians are allied to Hezbollah, which is the nemesis of the US-Israeli alliance. Syria has maintained offices of Hamas in Syria. For all these reasons the Bush administration has chosen not to engage with the Syrians, who moreover are accused of a whole bunch of alleged mischief in Lebanon. Whether true or not is beside the point. The point is I think the Bush administration and the administration in Damascus have reached a point of no return.

Fares Braizat: Actually I am not sure whether the Syrians and the Israelis, despite their declared positions that they want to reach a peace treaty, are prepared to do so. The other factor is the United States. I do not think the United States is prepared to support, especially under this administration, a peace deal between Israel and Syria given the regional pact that Syria is involved in. It is not possible that the Syrians would all of a sudden de-link themselves from the Iranian alliance and sign a peace treaty with Israel in which they would sacrifice their relationship with Hezbollah, which is a very strong strategic arm vis-à-vis Israel, and also the amount of influence they can exercise and exert on Hamas.

Murhaf Jouejati: I would like to respectfully dissent from that view. I would Syria would give up Hezbollah, I think Syria would give up Iran, I think Syria would give up Hamas – if it could recover the Golan Heights. Syria is not going to blow the chance of recovering the Golan Heights for the sake of its alliance with Hezbollah. I think the reverse is true. This is realpolitik. This is nothing new. The Syrians have played it very well. First and foremost is the recovery of the Golan.

There is a hypothesis that says the Asad regime is really not interested in getting the Golan because it has an interest in perpetuating the Arab-Israeli conflict in order to divert domestic attention from troubles at home and so on. I have a rival hypothesis, which is that if Bashar Asad is able to regain the Golan Heights his legitimacy is going to go through the roof.

Fares Braizat: When I said that, I said under this administration. Maybe if the circumstances change in DC then what you said could be correct.

Trita Parsi: I have a question in regard to Ahmadinejad’s wrongly translated statement about wiping Israel off the map. Is this seen as mere bluster by the panelists as well as the governments in the region? What are the motivations for Iranians to use this type of rhetoric against Israel? Is it at some point seen to be perhaps directed against some of the pro-American governments in the region as well?

Fares Braizat: Public opinion in the region – there were several polls conducted in the region asking about the perceived security threat. People in the region do not see Iran as the threatening state; they see Israel and the United States as constituting a major threat to security. That view differs from the governments’ views. I think there is discrepancy here.

Why Iran uses that rhetoric – there are many reasons. One good reason is that the Palestinian issue makes the news and also mobilizes public opinion. Whenever anyone talks about the Palestinians, whether it is Saddam Hussein, it mobilizes Arab public opinion or the overwhelming majority of Arab public opinion behind him. When Ahmadinejad uses that rhetoric, also he mobilizes Arab and Muslim public opinion behind him. He is targeting the injustice and that appeals to the public and re-legitimizes the discourse that is coming from a regime that otherwise would be illegitimate compared to the amount of economic deliveries that it delivers to its population.

Murhaf Jouejati: I second that. Based on the assumption – and I do not know whether that assumption is right or wrong, but based on the assumption of Iran having regional hegemonic ambitions, I view this rhetoric more – as you said, Dr. Braizat – to mobilize Arab public opinion more than anything else. The real threat of statements like these are not so much to Israel as much as they are to Arab regimes.

Trita Parsi: Dr. Braizat, is that part of the reason why Jordan does see Iran as a great challenge in the region, in the sense that the Iranians have at various times, particularly in the early 1980s, tried to use Arab public opinion against the Arab governments that tend to be pro-American? And is this more important than the Sunni-Shi’ite divide?

Fares Braizat: I think the Shi’ite-Sunni divide, as it appears today, is a newly formed phenomenon. When we talk about the politicized Shi’ite-Sunni divide we are talking about a new phenomenon that followed the invasion of Iraq. The major reason behind this is the following. When the US got into Iraq they recognized religious sectarian identities as political identities and dealt with them as such. By doing this they legitimized something otherwise as illegitimate in the eyes of the Iraqi public. Therefore once that was institutionalized it got the legitimacy and the support of the public as the only possible channel of communications that people can follow in order to place demands on their government and on the occupation forces.

To what extent that is going to survive – I do not think it is going to survive for long. Today we talked a lot about this, in Lebanon and the Gulf states in particular – we did not really hear about Shi’a minorities in the Gulf states in the sense that we hear about that issue today. That was not an issue debated on TV screens and at conferences and seminars. That was some internal issue in these governments. I agree that as long as Arab governments do not address these grievances in their societies and as long as the concept and the principle of citizenship is not applied; as long as democratic reforms are far away, this pretext will be there forever. Any force that would choose to destabilize the region would use that as a starting point. Arab governments will have to build an internal defense mechanism that will deal with the Shi’ite minorities in these countries as citizens in these countries.

The second point about this is that there is a very important difference between a political minority and a sectarian or ethnic minority. We can talk about this when we have democratic governments but as long as we do not have democratic governments the legitimacy of the Sunni-Shi’ite or Arab-Kurd will remain an idea that would gain support and legitimacy. The only way to offset this is to establish equality before the law and the concept of citizenship in which Shi’a and Sunni and Muslim and Christian and Kurd and Arab will disappear as political identities.

Trita Parsi: An audience member has been kind enough to address a question to me with regard to Israel and Iran. What would be the effect on Iran-Israel relations if a peace agreement between Israel and Syria is reached? Before I address that issue let me also just second some of the things that were mentioned here with regard to why the Iranians are using this heightened rhetoric against Israel. I deal with it extensively in my book “Treacherous Alliance.” It is truly one of the vehicles that the Iranian state for a long time, even actually before the revolution occasionally, were using in order to be able to bridge the gaps between the Arabs and the Iranians. What is interesting with the statement about the Holocaust is that Ahmadinejad basically crossed one of the Iranian government’s own red lines. The Iranians have been using very excessive rhetoric against Israel for quite some time but they never really touched the Holocaust before. That was an attempt by the more radical elements in Iran to be able to make it as difficult as possible for the more moderate elements to be able to have a more pragmatic approach toward Israel in case of an arrangement between the United States and Iran were to be found.

As to the effect that a Syrian-Israeli deal would have on the Iranians, I think it would be quite a strong blow to Iran’s standing in the region if such an agreement were to be found prior to the United States and Iran being able to find some sort of accommodation. That clearly seems to be the objective of some of those pushing for that, hoping to be able to use that to isolate Iran. However, if this were to be addressed in addition to an Iranian-American agreement as well as a larger regional solution, I do not think the Iranians are going to be more Syrian than the Syrians. I do not think the Iranians are going to sacrifice some of their own core interests for the sake of being able to retain the current balance. Rather, I think just as much as in Syria there would be a great asset to be able to say that you won Golan, the Iranians are looking to see who in Iran can be able to befriend the Americans from a position of strength. In order to do so they are willing to sacrifice many of the other assets that they otherwise have been using.

The next question is in regards to what is taking place in Iraq right now and the Iranian involvement. What is your assessment of the likelihood of the Iranians overplaying their hand in Iraq and as a result sparking Iraqi nationalism as a force against Iran?

Fares Braizat: If the Iranians overplay their hand in Iraq, what would happen? I think Iraqi nationalism was largely established before the invasion. Since the independence of Iraq, the Iraqis felt their national identity. Now given the circumstances and the rule of Saddam Hussein and what happened at the end of that rule – discrimination against the Kurds and also massacres against the Kurds – these shed some light or at least made the legitimacy of Iraqi nationalism – brought it into question.

One has to look at to what extent Iran has an influence within Iraq. There are certain Shi’a elements that pledge allegiance to Iran. They have grown in Iran. The Al-Hakim movement for example and the Badr Brigades were trained in Iran. There are some other factions that would be loyal to Iran politically and strategically. But I think the majority of Iraqis would not be as such. Hezb-e-Dawa is also close to Iran but that does not mean it will remain at all in the Iranian hands.

To what extent that would enhance Iraqi national identity, I think that depends on two factors. First, the success of the political process. If a political process becomes a truly democratic one and more national reconciliation takes place then one would think of Iraqi nationalism strengthening not as a response to Iranian intervention as much as it is to internal processes that make it an accessory step and an accessory demand for Iraqi politicians as much as it is for Iraqi citizens. One step we saw in that regard is the revisiting of the de-Baathification policy, and the parliament of Iraq passed legislation just a couple weeks ago allowing former Baathists to get employment in government jobs. That is the beginning of a new Iraqi nationalism based on different principles than the old one, which was based on Arab nationalism.

Judith Harik: I would like to introduce the notion of a future Iraq being put back together again somehow, perhaps through the alliance of Syria and Iran. I am one that thinks that those are the powers that live next to Iraq. They are both strong. The Syrians can influence the Sunnis in the north, as they have been doing. I realize this is a rather simplistic framework but maybe it is worth thinking about. The Iranians could probably bring important sectors of the Shi’ite community to agree with that. Someone is going to have to put a government together there and I think that government is going to have to be acceptable somehow or another down the line to both Syria and Iran, if the country is going to be stable. It does not mean that the government would be a puppet but I think there has to be a lot more influence of those two in the making of a national government, if you can imagine that.

Trita Parsi: On that note, we have a question questioning why so many of the questions are about the specific relations of the United States and another one in this triangle and how that would affect the rest of the region. The question is: why isn’t there a greater interest in a more region-wide type of solution in which numerous countries, if not all the countries in the region, would be brought in along the lines of what was recommended by the Baker-Hamilton report? What is the readiness for that in the region? Would that require too big of a paradigm shift to even be considered viable?

Fares Braizat: We have a very serious problem: the recognition of Israel in the region. Two countries only have peace treaties, Jordan and Egypt, with Israel. If we are talking about a region-wide security arrangement we need to bring the Gulf states, Lebanon, Syria and other Arab countries. That would extend perhaps to Yemen and Sudan. These countries do not have peace treaties with Israel and there is also significant segment of public opinion in the region that does not wish to acknowledge Israel as a Jewish state. So the core problem in my view has to do with solving the Arab-Israeli conflict. As long as that conflict is there we will continue to suffer because of that conflict and other factors that relate to that conflict.

One quick piece of evidence on this. An overwhelming majority of Arabs in Morocco, Algeria, Jordan, Palestine, Lebanon, Yemen and Kuwait polled recently in the Arab Barometer Project do not accept to recognize Israel as a Jewish state. Maybe if Israel accepts to give up its occupation of the 1967 land and then addresses the issue of refugees and other issues, which was presented in the Arab peace initiative adopted first in Beirut in 2002 and reconfirmed in 2007 at the Riyadh Summit – that we provide Israel with mutual security guarantees if it accepts 123 – and the Israelis rejected certain elements, especially the refugee question and the return to the 1967 borders. Therefore that is a major obstacle for any regional arrangement.

Second, the balance that the United States and other powers in the region will have to strike. You have on the one hand a very ambitious Iran which also does not acknowledge Israel and has a problem with Israel, and on the other hand you have Israel which is also a very ambitious power that seeks domination. So if you bring these two countries together in one security arrangement that would be a great achievement. I guess the one who would manage that would deserve a Nobel Peace Prize.

Murhaf Jouejati: I agree, there is no alternative. There is no bypassing the Arab-Israeli conflict. This is the core of the issues. It is not the only one certainly. If there were peace between Israel and the Arabs not all the problems of the Middle East would be solved, but certainly it is the core issue. Therefore the Arab plan has to be taken more seriously and relevant land-for-peace resolutions have to be implemented. There is no other power that can arbitrate this but the United States. The alternative is truly very scary. The alternative is a US that wants to perpetuate the Pax Americana, the status quo in the Middle East, and its allies against an Iran that has regional ambitions and its allies. If we continue on this path, truly it has very dangerous overtones. So there is no alternative to an Arab-Israeli peace that will not only defuse the tensions but will bring states together in the future.

Judith Harik: I agree entirely.

Trita Parsi: A question for you, Professor Harik. There is a lot of speculation, a lot of numbers thrown around about exactly how much military aid Hezbollah is receiving from Iran. These are coming from sources on both sides that have their own political motivations to either reduce those numbers or increase them. Do we have any reliable statistic on exactly what the extent of that military support is, when and how it has varied, and what the root causes for that variation has been?

Judith Harik: I cannot answer that question because were I to go poking around in this particular issue, I would immediately end all my sources in Hezbollah. This is something an American woman is not going to investigate very easily. So I cannot really say anything with teeth here.

The only thing I can say is that since the 2006 war I have picked up some information and scuttlebutt that the Syrians through their sources – and the Russians, for example – provided quite a bit of the armaments that were surprising in the 2006 war. I think this means that when the Hezbollah official told me that they could diversify their sources, this is the kind of thing they had in mind. I think we can imagine that the arms that Hezbollah had and effectively used must be in Syria ten times over, because of Syria’s problems and also because of its alliance with Iran. But I do not have any other specifics.

Trita Parsi: Dr. Braizat, your comment about Iranian support for Al Qaeda has generated a tremendous amount of interest. One of the questions in regard to that comment is that if it is true that the Iranians are supporting not just Sunni militias, not just Shi’ite militias but actually elements of Al Qaeda in Iraq, why has that not been used much more extensively by the Bush administration? Is the Bush administration going soft on Iran?

Fares Braizat: Very interesting question. The phrasing of the question is very interesting. What I said about that is linked to data that I have got from interviews in Amman with some Iraqis who came to Amman. One particular member who gave me that information is a leading figure in one of the Majlis Al-Sahwa, the Awakening Councils. The Bush administration has always been using that – they are supporting insurgents. Sometimes they defined the insurgents that they thought the Iranians were supporting, other times they did not define them. This particular example that I am talking about does not surprise me. Looking at Iraq, what is going on in Iraq and what is the Iranian strategic objective in Iraq, it does not surprise me at all. The Iranians want to drag the Americans into a war of attrition that they are not necessarily paying a price for while the Americans are paying an extremely high price for it. I think there are many parties in the region who would like to see the Americans drawn into a war of attrition and the Iranians also involved in that effort. So there are parties who would like to see the Iranians and Americans in an entrenched war, indirect perhaps. It does not surprise me at all.

Given also the American rhetoric against Iran, it is enough of a provocation for some elements – especially when we read recent reports in the media about how many people were arrested in Iraq, and you may remember the cell that was arrested in northern Iraq that was labeled as working for the Revolutionary Guards’ Al-Qods Forces in Iraq. This is information that is available. The use of how frequent or how intensive the US administration uses this against the Iranians – it is their choice.

Trita Parsi: Last question. We have had this debate for a long time in Washington, that we basically viewed the Iranian nuclear issue from a binary perspective. Either the Iranians will go nuclear, with a nuclear weapon and everything else in that package, or the United States would engage in some sort of military confrontation with Iran – either bomb them or acquiesce to the Iranian bomb. Let’s say that one of those scenarios, that Iran would gain not only knowledge of a nuclear weapon but actually would produce it, how would that change the calculus of the various entities in the Middle East? Particularly the Syrians, the Jordanians and Hezbollah – how would that change the equation?

Judith Harik: Owning nuclear weapons and using them, thank god, are two different things for most countries. I cannot see how it would affect the Hezbollah-Iranian relationship. I am not going to speak for Syria but I do not see how that would affect that relationship.

Murhaf Jouejati: It is a very good question and a very complex issue. I think for Syria on the one hand it would strengthen it in terms of deterrence vis-à-vis Israel certainly. The Syrians would probably welcome something like this. On the other hand it could leave the Syrians out in the cold in terms of the Arab orbit. That would be a very strange position for Syria to be in. This is not the first time that Syria, which again perceives itself as the champion of Arabs and Arab rights, that it is at odds with Saudi Arabia and Egypt and the Arab order. But Syria always swung back as a result of the fear of sanctions from not conforming to Arabist expectations. So while on the one hand it is strengthened vis-à-vis Israel, I think on the other hand the basis of the legitimacy of the regime in terms of pan-Arab nationalism would be tremendously weakened if the Syrian-Iranian alliance were to take Syria definitely out of the Arab orbit.

Fares Braizat: Four major consequences of a nuclear Iran. One, it emboldens Iran and its allies and that would result in increasing influence and demands placed on states that are not in that coalition. It will increase American involvement in the region as an umbrella power to protect non-nuclear states or allying states, like the Gulf states and others. But the important question is: does Iran or will Iran have delivery systems for such weapons? So far we do not see any evidence that the Iranians have been able to produce or manufacture delivery systems of such weapons. The other issue is nuclear weapons are there are deterrents. So far the Iranians are talking about the peaceful nuclear program to generate electricity. Everyone else does not believe their intentions but we cannot judge people’s intentions simply. We can accuse and we can accept explanations but we definitely cannot say their intention is to build a nuclear bomb.

The other issue is it is initiating a nuclear race in the region. Seven Arab states have already started their nuclear programs – UAE, Egypt, Tunisia, Jordan, etc. – for peaceful means to generate electricity. Would that be a welcome opportunity? I do not think so. I do not think it is something the US would like to see.

Trita Parsi: Thank you so much. On that note, please join me in thanking the panelists for an excellent discussion.

Speaker Details:

Fares Braizat is Director and Senior Researcher of University of Jordan's Centre for Strategic Studies
Murhaf Jouejati is MEI Adjunct Scholar and an Adjunct Professor at the National Defense University
Judith P. Harik is President of Matn University, Beirut and leading expert on Hezbollah
Trita Parsi is President of the National Iranian American Council (NIAC)

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